Numetal/Retromux

[Apos]

I think the most challenging thing you can do in a the MU format is run a game that allows open pvp between players that dislike one another, are encouraged to do so because of theme, and not have it turn into an environment where players despise one another. This is compounded by staffers who do not see a point in trying, and players who enjoy the game exactly because of the environment it produces rather than in spite of it.

[Yam]

It all seems to come back to PVP. <<;

[somasatori]

Someone once told me (paraphrased) that the primary difference between maintaining OOC respect for your fellow players after a PVP/tense situation at a LARP and maintaining OOC respect and kindness towards your fellow MUSHers in the same situation is that MUSHers are not obligated to sit in a booth with each other at IHOP at 2am after we’ve finished our scenes.

Anonymity can be a real motivator in being a serious asshole towards others – which is interesting, because I’m fairly certain we’ve all known each other (or of each other) for the better part of a decade (which is perhaps also what leads to PVP situations).

That said, PVP is a difficult one. On one hand, if you explicitly prohibit PVP in a WoD environment, it takes some of the bite out of inter-sphere relations. On the other hand, allowing for a no-holds-barred environment will make the game – from examples I’ve seen – into a tedious free-for-all. I’m not sure if it’s just my perception based on the people I talk to, but I feel like interest in PVP has dropped off in the last little while.

[Autumn]

@somasatori said in Numetal/Retromux:

That said, PVP is a difficult one. On one hand, if you explicitly prohibit PVP in a WoD environment, it takes some of the bite out of inter-sphere relations. On the other hand, allowing for a no-holds-barred environment will make the game – from examples I’ve seen – into a tedious free-for-all. I’m not sure if it’s just my perception based on the people I talk to, but I feel like interest in PVP has dropped off in the last little while.

I would agree on both counts. Very little turns me off a game faster than players who think threatening murder is an appropriate first response … but there are some things that ought to get you killed in a WoD game. If there’s no downside for a vampire who feels like rolling up onto the heart of the local werewolf caern, then vampires who feel like it are going to do that, and there are a non-zero number of vampires who will feel like it.

On the gripping hand, there isn’t always clear agreement on what those things are. I’ve met people who felt that “I think you might have figured out that I belong to splat X” falls into the “warrants death” category, and people who felt that executing characters from a different splat did not fall into that category. Unsurprisingly, people tend to have separate standards for when they should be allowed to murder someone and when someone else should be allowed to murder them.

“Don’t PVP someone unless staff agrees with you that they have done something galactically stupid” is a little unsatisfying, and prone to the usual complaints about staff favoring one party over the other, but I find I still prefer it to either of the other two extremes.

[KDraygo]

@somasatori said in Numetal/Retromux:

That said, PVP is a difficult one. On one hand, if you explicitly prohibit PVP in a WoD environment, it takes some of the bite out of inter-sphere relations. On the other hand, allowing for a no-holds-barred environment will make the game – from examples I’ve seen – into a tedious free-for-all. I’m not sure if it’s just my perception based on the people I talk to, but I feel like interest in PVP has dropped off in the last little while.

I have not played WoD before but another issue with PvP or even RP that is PvP adjacent player interests clash, even with staff resolution, there may be claims that staff favoritism is involved or that they are part of the popular clique, that is why they ‘won’. PvP is extremely difficult to do properly in cooperative RP.

[hellfrog]

is it WoD…or is it vampire/werewolf that are the real problem

[Pavel]

@hellfrog Mage is also a problem. I don’t hear much about Changeling, but I don’t play much changeling so it’s not really in my echo chamber.

To your point, though, I think large-scale antagonisms could well be a large part of the issue. At least in nWoD and CofD (which is a stupid name) the different supernatural groups don’t really care about each other all that much—because there’s no metaplot really.

[Prototart]

@Pavel said in Numetal/Retromux:

@hellfrog Mage is also a problem. I don’t hear much about Changeling, but I don’t play much changeling so it’s not really in my echo chamber.

Changeling can be several different kinds of problem. Think Disney adults.

[hellfrog]

@Prototart said in Numetal/Retromux:

@Pavel said in Numetal/Retromux:

@hellfrog Mage is also a problem. I don’t hear much about Changeling, but I don’t play much changeling so it’s not really in my echo chamber.

Changeling can be several different kinds of problem. Think Disney adults.

do you feel like they are equal problems

[somasatori]

The issue is one of power parity and stat comparison in most cases. Werewolf would not have a pvp problem most of the time without Vampire or Mage. Vampire would not have a PVP problem if people stopped playing Vampire. Mage would not have a PVP problem without Vampires and Werewolves. We need to stop making big multi-sphere games.

[Pavel]

@somasatori I dunno, I think it’s a stupid people problem a lot more than it is a power parity problem. Drunk drivers don’t care about the speed limit.

[Gashlycrumb]

@Pavel

‘The Drunken Driver Has The Right of Way’ by Ethan Coen

The loudest have the final say,
The wanton win, the rash hold sway,
The realist’s rules of order say
The drunken driver has the right of way.

The Kubla Khan can butt in line;
The biggest brute can take what’s mine;
When heavyweights break wind, that’s fine;
No matter what a judge might say,
The drunken driver has the right of way.

The guiltiest feel free of guilt;
Who care not, bloom; who worry, wilt;
Plans better laid are rarely built
For forethought seldom wins the day;
The drunken driver has the right of way.

The most attentive and unfailing
Carefulness is unavailing
Wheresoever fools are flailing;
Wisdom there is held at bay;,
The drunken driver has the right of way.

De jure is de facto’s slave;
The most foolhardy beat the brave;
Brass routs restraint; low lies high’s grave;
When conscience leads you, it’s astray;
The drunken driver has the right of way.

It’s only the naivest who’ll
Deny this, that the reckless rule;
When facing an oncoming fool
The practiced and sagacious say
Watch out — one side — look sharp — gang way.

However much you plan and pray,
Alas, alack, tant pis, oy vey,
Now — heretofore — til Judgment Day,
The drunken driver has the right of way