AI In Poses
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@Jumpscare said in AI In Poses:
@Tez said in AI In Poses:
I saw a lot of people going ‘oh no, people might think I’m AI’ on the other thread but no examples of anyone actually getting incorrectly flagged. I think these are strawmen. Have we seen it happen?
I put some of my writing for room descs into an AI detector. Almost every one was marked as AI. Then I tried some from a former builder who I know was using AI (but I hadn’t honed my personal detection methods well enough to spot it, and we’ve since removed all of her descs). And it came back as not AI. This was back in early 2024, though, so maybe detection methods have improved in almost 2 years.
I think a lot of us can say this about things we’ve written. Sometimes, especially because as a hobby we do often write a lot , and often in the areas these datasets are trained on, the way that we write CAN look sus. Lord knows we do, and have, and did raise this concern in the other thread.
But has anyone actually disciplined you for the things you’ve sincerely written, though? That’s the case I’m actually interested in, not the anxieties people have that they might accidentally get flagged as AI and banned on an off day. I just don’t think that’s happening.
she/they
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@Jumpscare said in AI In Poses:
I put some of my writing for room descs into an AI detector. Almost every one was marked as AI. Then I tried some from a former builder who I know was using AI (but I hadn’t honed my personal detection methods well enough to spot it, and we’ve since removed all of her descs). And it came back as not AI. This was back in early 2024, though, so maybe detection methods have improved in almost 2 years.
From playing with both the various detectors and LLMs, it’s gonna vary depending on which one you use and how much text you have to work with (I’ve found it a lot wonkier for descs because they’re a short sample size). I have a paid subscription to one that’s been reliable for me in the past but I haven’t dug into its methodology for false positive/negative rates in a while. At the end of the day it’s mostly a gut check so I’m not just going off pure Vibes when I get to the point where I want to ask somebody if they’re using an LLM. I really, really don’t want to interact with LLM as much as possible in my travels through this hobby. If that seems unfair or Luddite-y? IDK, maybe I am those things. But I would straight-up stop playing at all if this stuff came to dominate the MUSH space. And, while I think I’ve gotten a better sense of it over the years, particularly in creative writing, I don’t want to just go off my gut because my gut is inevitably going to go easier on my friends/players I like than randos I meet in the wild. There is stuff I am 90% sure is from ChatGPT that didn’t ping as it from a Non-Vibes source and I just shrugged and said ‘fair enough.’
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@Third-Eye It’s cool to be a Luddite. They didn’t hate technology in itself, they were professionals in their own right. They were mad that the automation of their labor never made their jobs easier, the profits all just went straight to the top.
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@labsunlimited Amusingly I’ve noticed an uptick in Luddite praise across the net lately. It’s cool to be a Luddite again.
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@Tez said in AI In Poses:
That’s the case I’m actually interested in, not the anxieties people have that they might accidentally get flagged as AI and banned on an off day. I just don’t think that’s happening.
Are you limiting your question solely to MUs? In that case, no, I am not aware of anyone getting disciplined falsely for AI use in MUs.
But in the real world? It’s absolutely happening. There’s no reason to believe it won’t happen here too if people start routinely feeding things into AI detectors.
@Tez said in AI In Poses:
We can and do punish players for plagiarism in this hobby, so if we treat them as equivalent, then why wouldn’t we punish them?
I didn’t say I wouldn’t ban someone for plagiarism if I believed they did it, I said I don’t routinely run poses through a plagiarism detector hunting for violations. Also while I may personally feel that GenAI is a plagiarism machine, I do acknowledge that mainstream society doesn’t see something AI-generated as plagiarism. So I do not attribute the same malice to the action.
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@Faraday There is a human that’s in charge of disinviting people to games. If the human uses their human brain to use a tool to confirm if someone is using AI, based on the results AND their intuition, I don’t know, I think that’s fairly solid. If a human decides to just scan everyone and everything and determine to boot them off their game based on those results…
Like. Okay? If I get banned that way, I don’t want to be on that game anyway? If I go to BMD to whine about it I’d blame staffing decisions. The issue is false negatives, not false positives. At least, that has been our experience running games within the last 5 years.
This thread is about AI in poses. I think detectors are appropriate in this particular environment where human writing really, really matters.
I TOTALLY understand the impulse to have clear, hard lines about this kind of thing. I don’t like arbitrary rules AT ALL. I worry about slippery slopes. But we’re here to write human written lines at each other. This is what it’s all about! This is the CORE of our hobby. If we don’t push back against this with EVERY weapon we have, we might end up RPing with robots. Which people have! It doesn’t feel great!
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No one asked about this but one of the reasons why Luddites are so maligned as just anti-technology morons is because of pre-Marxist class struggle, which was won by the burgeoning industrialists and capitalists of the early Industrial Revolution period. Many of the luddites, as labsunlimited mentioned, were professionals who knew their craft well. Many of them had probably grown up being taught the craft by parents who had apprenticed them to other expert crafters, and had a great deal of generational knowledge about a specific handiwork. The Luddites weren’t protesting technology, they were protesting the development and financing of machines that created cheap, replaceable, and easily manufactured versions of handcrafted things. I think the main contingent were weavers, but I could be misremembering that. On one level, you could view it as bourgeoisie vs. petit bourgeoisie (industrialists/capitalists vs. small business owners), but many artisan crafters of the turn of the 19th century often lost their business due to cheaply manufactured goods and ended up working in those same factories. Or they wound up in poorhouses, I guess. In the US they probably just starved to death because we’ve always been who we are.
Engels talks a little bit about this in The Condition of the Working Class in England, which is a good historical reference regardless of one’s personal opinions on Marxism or socialism, as you can see elements of this same conflict between the advent of new machines to perform traditionally human labor in our current conversations about AI.
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@Yam said in AI In Poses:
There is a human that’s in charge of disinviting people to games.
I’m not only talking about staff using AI detectors to ban people, I’m also talking about people running each others’ poses through AI detectors.
If your human gut is saying that something is AI generated, that’s one thing. I just don’t trust these AI detector tools. Everything I’ve seen about them from experts tells me that the fundamental way they work is flawed, and I’ve seen enough drama around false-positives that I don’t want anything to do with them. YMMV.
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I very strongly disagree these detectors should be discounted. Don’t use the free one google suggests and no other checks, obviously, but the hobby needs to be protected from this slop, at whatever costs. It’s an inherently vulnerable hobby, where everyone is agreeing to submit their actual writing to another person in a scene for reaction. For fun!
It’s not just that LLM writing is hollow, bloated, and uninteresting (though it is), it’s also a breach of that fundamental contract to use it. I have always told people if they aren’t in it to have fun AND make fun for their scene partners, they need a new hobby. If you are using LLMs you are not engaged and you certainly aren’t trying to be fun to rp with.
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@Yam said in AI In Poses:
Has ANYONE gotten banned, not suspected, BANNED, for use of LLM in poses/profiles/etc when they HAVEN’T used it?
This is the only thing that concerns me. I’m a FOOL and was tricked by at least 1 AI app that slipped through. Sorry to catzilla for having to RP with this ai person for a week
I recall you lamenting.At least it made me aware that people are doing copy and paste of AI in their writings/backgrounds/etc.
I can’t recall if their poses were actually AI but everything in their profiles was.
And then looking back at it (before the website went kablooey) I was like, this is so obvious AI how did I not know?
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@Faraday The tools work OK from what I’ve seen (as has been mentioned on other threads, Turnitin has modules for this). What it does is flag it as possible - the human has to do some leg work. With essays, for example, you might look at a mini viva. M**s have a pretty low bar, the cost of being booted off the game is…you don’t get to play on that game. That’s all.
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Oh also, people using GenAI in this way absolutely should be shunned. It is crass slop that is fucking up a lot of things, and the sooner the bubble bursts the slightly less screwed we will all be. There are really specific use cases for GenAI - but it is expensive tech, and those use cases don’t need everyone to be using it. Hopefully they’ll get onto AI that actually learns at some point.
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@catzilla said in AI In Poses:
At least it made me aware that people are doing copy and paste of AI in their writings/backgrounds/etc.
I have legit seen people copy AI slop into their backgrounds and forget to take the AI chatter out, so at the end it’s like
Would you like a more dramatic, literary option next?It would be extremely funny if it was on purpose, but I’m very sure it wasn’t.
@hellfrog said in AI In Poses:
It’s not just that LLM writing is hollow, bloated, and uninteresting (though it is), it’s also a breach of that fundamental contract to use it. I have always told people if they aren’t in it to have fun AND make fun for their scene partners, they need a new hobby. If you are using LLMs you are not engaged and you certainly aren’t trying to be fun to rp with.
+1000.
Also +1000 to @Faraday’s point that you cannot trust AI detectors to detect AI. They just absolutely are not trustable, and I think human intuition of “wait, this writing feels wordy and bland and disconnected from what’s actually happening in the scene” is both more accurate and more useful right now, because if a person isn’t using AI but does sound wordy and bland and disconnected from the scene, that’s still worth checking in about. (Mostly the disconnected “are you even reading this scene” part. I too am sometimes bland and wordy all by my human self, but at least I’m blandly and wordily responding to the scene.)
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Regardless of whether I agree (morally, ethically, whatever) with the use of AI, out in the real world I can understand it: You want to make a buck, get a grade, or otherwise achieve something that’s difficult with as little effort as possible. I get that.
But… creativity and writing are the entire goddamn point(s) of the kind of RP we do. If you want to use Grammarly or something like that to catch typos and comma placement, that’s totally fine, but to use an LLM to do the creative bit is so alien an idea to me that I’d probably never even suspect a person of doing it. I’d probably just think they’re boring, or ESL, or ESL and boring.
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@Clarion said in AI In Poses:
Also +1000 to @Faraday’s point that you cannot trust AI detectors to detect AI. They just absolutely are not trustable, and I think human intuition of “wait, this writing feels wordy and bland and disconnected from what’s actually happening in the scene” is both more accurate and more useful right now, because if a person isn’t using AI but does sound wordy and bland and disconnected from the scene, that’s still worth checking in about.
On a personal level I agree with and I’m guided primarily by my intuition as I try to navigate this stuff. When I pull up a detector it’s to have a second sanity check. Because what else have we got, ya know? The idea of relying purely on my feels is worse to me, because I think it does open the door to people get way too confident about being The Em Dash Police with people they haven’t played with much, while being totally blind to their buddy who’s writing style suddenly morphs into nine paragraph purple sycophancy. It also feels very easy to invalidate when someone says, ‘Well it looks fine to me! Who cares lol’ I mean…maybe it is fine? And plenty of people don’t care, which is all well and good and they can figure that out for themselves. But I do care! And I am trying to navigate this stuff.
I also don’t think players should be getting into ‘nu-uh’ fights about this among themselves while staff is just hands off. I increasingly want a game to be very clear on what its stance on AI is because players policing this themselves is a fucking nightmare. If staff doesn’t allow LLM writing, players should respect that, and potential LLM posers should imo be reported so staff can sort it out with whatever process they manage to cobble together. If a game straight-up doesn’t care they should say they straight-up don’t care and people should leave it be, and then players can decide for themselves whether the environment is OK with them.
I want something else to get me through this
Semi-charmed kinda life, baby, baby
I want something else, I'm not listening when you say good-byeShe/Her or They/Them
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OK genuine question because I couldn’t find anything with a quick search and was too lazy to dive deep, but…
Don’t AI detectors also use LLMs? And couldn’t they then be training on the stuff they’re scanning?
If so, by putting poses into them, I could potentially be using other peoples’ RP to feed the very machine I hate so much.
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@Faraday
This is a question about the individual service, not the entire category. For instance, Pangram’s policy:Pangram does not train generalized AI models like ChatGPT, and our AI detection technology is based off of a large, proprietary dataset that doesn’t include user submitted content.
We train an initial model on a small but diverse dataset of approximately 1 million documents comprised of public and licensed human-written text. The dataset also includes AI-generated text produced by GPT-4 and other frontier language models. The result of training is a neural network capable of reliably predicting whether text was authored by human or AI.
If you refuse to use any technology that relies on machine learning, algorithms, or neural networks regardless of the specifics then obviously that is your prerogative but you are going to have a hard time using the internet at all.
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@Trashcan said in AI In Poses:
If you refuse to use any technology that relies on machine learning, algorithms, or neural networks regardless of the specifics then obviously that is your prerogative but you are going to have a hard time using the internet at all.
Yes, that would be ridiculous, and is not even remotely close to anything I’ve said. I have literally worked on ML software to identify cancer cells on digital pathology scans and categorize covid risks. My objection is to LLMs trained on material without compensation or consent, designed to replace creative folks with crappy knockoffs.
I just asked if someone knew off-hand how these detector tools worked because I couldn’t find the info quickly myself. Not all of them in existence, but the prominent ones at least.
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@Third-Eye said in AI In Poses:
I increasingly want a game to be very clear on what its stance on AI is because players policing this themselves is a fucking nightmare.
Yeah I’d agree, this is something that staff should be on top of, one way or another. Any situation that dips into accusation drama would be a player problem and should be dealt with accordingly.
