AI In Poses
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@Kestrel said in AI In Poses:
I’m honestly at a point where I treat obvious typos and grammar errors in a person’s writing on a MU* as a massive green flag, because it proves to me they didn’t use AI.
And, if there’s one thing AI won’t do, it’s describe eyes as “orbs.”
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@somasatori It will gladly explain that those eyes speak to an inner rigidity and coolness that has appeared out of nowhere when compared to the rest of the description, however.
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@Pavel said in AI In Poses:
@somasatori It will gladly explain that those eyes speak to an inner rigidity and coolness that has appeared out of nowhere when compared to the rest of the description, however.
Before going on a three paragraph description of the person’s clothes and how said clothes reflect the deep, inner sea of their personality.
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@somasatori said in AI In Poses:
@Pavel said in AI In Poses:
@somasatori It will gladly explain that those eyes speak to an inner rigidity and coolness that has appeared out of nowhere when compared to the rest of the description, however.
Before going on a three paragraph description of the person’s clothes
help i am being targeted
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Moving over here because I want to be clear this is a MU context
@Faraday I know you don’t like LLMs including their use in MUSHing, so leaving aside the work/school/academia thing for a moment, let me ask your opinion
You are running a game. No AI content is allowed, that is the rule and it’s posted.
Someone who usually writes very distinctively and with many errors suddenly shifts to sounding very same-y, vague, bland, overwhelmingly positive, and somewhat nonsensical with regard to theme, and there’s no more of those human errors. They’re churning out a ton of content that they never used to. You suspect AI. Vibes are off.
You ask them if they’ve used AI and they say ‘no that’s my writing.’ Which seems super unlikely, but rare is the confronted player who just says “ya got me.”
What happens next?
Do you allow this person to continue, even though it seems likely they’re lying and disrespecting the preferences/expectations that you as a host laid out?
Do you decide if they said “no it’s my writing” then they are simply not lying, despite all the evidence to the contrary?
Do you ask them to leave the game based on vibes? Based on something else?
Do you tell them you’re issuing a warning? What happens if they continue to use the Probably ChatGPT text despite the warning?
Something else?I’ve run into this issue with players. I’m not trying to be snotty in tone here, genuinely I want to know what your approach as a game host would be if you suspect LLM use, don’t like LLM use, and someone is (probably) doing it anyway.
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@Warma-Sheen said in AI In Poses:
@somasatori said in AI In Poses:
I have a question. What do you get out of MUSHing, a hobby wherein you write paragraphs at people in a turn-based format, when you’re not actually doing the writing? What’s the end goal there?
I’ve had this conversation with more than a few people and one of the most common themes that came up: an experience as close to tabletop gaming as possible, but without being crapped on because of not being able to put out AP English writing or wait 20 minutes per exchange for all the editing.
MU*ers can be catty, judgemental, petty, elitist, etc… to a higher degree than any I’ve ever known, probably to do with internet anonymity, which is one of the reasons the hobby continues to grow smaller and smaller. I’ve never known a community so highly motivated/invested in killing itself off as intensely as this one, and I’ve known some pretty shitty communities in my life (I’m old… er now.)
People show up to MU*s for very different reasons and it sometimes seems like a large number of people assume that everyone else around them is there for the exact same reason as them then get frustrated/confused when they don’t play the way they would.
I’ve had the conversation on other threads, so I won’t get into it again here if people reply back to tell me all the ways I’m wrong, but taking a tool that improves writing and using it on text based game seems like it would be a godsend to cure many of the ills that people have complained endlessly about for decades - bad writing, lack of storytellers, no interesting plots.
But to each, their own. People will feel how they feel about it and that’s okay, I guess. Its just sad for me cause I loved this hobby and I really thought this might actually put some life back into it, like CPR. So it was disappointing/sad/whatever when all the villagers pointed at the thing that could bring someone back to life thereby improving the outlook/prosperity of the entire community, called it a witch, and want it burned at the stake.
ETA: Not for nothing, but to go along with the analogy, some non-small portion of the thread is basically a witch hunt - with dubious degrees of accuracy.
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@Ashkuri I doubt I would try to enforce such a policy for individual poses, just as I don’t routinely run other peoples’ poses through a plagiarism checker. But speaking hypothetically…
If I did engage, I’d probably do so on the merits (or lack thereof) of the poses themselves. “It seems that you’re struggling with the theme in your poses…” or “I’ve noticed a change in your poses recently. It’s giving AI vibes…” with some constructive criticism.
Ultimately, you have the right to boot someone from your own game for any reason or no reason. If they’re giving you a bad vibe, you don’t need to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. You just need to be convinced yourself that you’re doing the right thing by showing them the door.
For a less extreme solution, just stop playing with them. If their poses are that nonsensical, probably others will too. Feels like kind of a self-limiting problem to me.
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IIRC @Tez did have some issue with player(s) using AI for stuff over on that there Demon (and others) game they ran. Their input might be warranted here too, if we’re having a sensible conversation about it.
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@Ashkuri said in AI In Poses:
You ask them if they’ve used AI and they say ‘no that’s my writing.’ Which seems super unlikely, but rare is the confronted player who just says “ya got me.”
What happens next?
You’re right that players rarely admit to using LLMs. Fundamentally in your scenario you have a player who has broken a rule. If someone breaks a rule, I would ban them. There’s not a lot of nuance in that.
The nuance, of course, is in the question on whether or not you can truly accurately determine whether or not someone is using LLM.
I strongly believe that you can. I honestly have found the conversation in the other thread sort of baffling on a fundamental level. I won’t say that it is always obvious – and this is something I will touch on in a moment – but between AI detectors and human intelligence, you can tell.
Have I caught everyone who uses LLM? Maybe not. Am I confident that everyone I’ve caught using LLM truly did? Yes.
@Faraday said in AI In Poses:
@Ashkuri I doubt I would try to enforce such a policy for individual poses, just as I don’t routinely run other peoples’ poses through a plagiarism checker. But speaking hypothetically…
I might not run things through a plagiarism checker, but I literally have seen people steal descriptions from other people and reuse them on other games. (@Roz for example. Someone stole her character desc from Arx and tried to use it on Concordia. As I recall, the player was disciplined. I am not sure if they were banned.)
We can and do punish players for plagiarism in this hobby, so if we treat them as equivalent, then why wouldn’t we punish them?
If their poses are that nonsensical, probably others will too. Feels like kind of a self-limiting problem to me.
I think you fail to understand how far LLM have come. You aren’t going to get absolute nonsense poses. LLMs are producing writing that grows more and more sophisticated. Like it or not, the technology evolves quickly. I don’t think you can dismiss it by saying that it is going to be obvious nonsense.
I’ve been thinking about how noticeable this will be going forward. As the technology grows more sophisticated, it may become more difficult to detect. It may slip past a threshold where I am confident in my ability to detect. I don’t know. I’ve spitballed ideas about how to deal with it in my head. Some of them are so silly that I won’t derail this thread with them.
For now, though, I can tell. I ban for plagiarism. I ban for LLM. Don’t break rules on my games.
No one post about em-dashes in this thread for the love of god. No one is coming for your em-dashes.
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@Ashkuri said in AI In Poses:
You ask them if they’ve used AI and they say ‘no that’s my writing.’ Which seems super unlikely, but rare is the confronted player who just says “ya got me.”
I came across this periodically on Shattered (which didn’t allow LLM generated poses) and, while I do think dishonesty is a common response, my experience was more nuanced than that. My first step if I thought something had been generated by LLM (and my experience is it’s never a one-pose thing, it’s something that consistently reads ‘huh a little bit off’ or 'something I made a 90% copy of with the right prompt on ChatGPT), was to page them and ask, ‘Your content <with examples> reads like it was generated by an LLM. What’s going on here?’
If it got to this point, and it did rarely because for me it had to be pretty blatant or chronic, I never got a straight-up ‘no.’ What I got was more answers I think minimizing something as a blatant ChatGPT-copy-paste job. ‘I use editing software I guess it rewrote that’ or ‘I used it to make something longer and better.’ The latter, btw, is the one I think was the most honest and it was ABSOLUTELY an untrue description of what they’d submitted. The LLM background they originally sent in had like three thematic errors that ChatGPT appeared to have just randomed into existence. The shorter (for the better) BG they rewrote was fine.
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One thing to consider, especially for myself is that there’s a noticeable difference in my posing when I’m focused and super into the RP that’s going on and when I’m RPing while I’m in an emotional low. When I’m not feeling mentally great, my poses tend to become repetitive and incredibly short and direct. It goes from a 3 paragraph pose of very descriptive language to “Dave hands Bob the Temporal Annihilator and says ‘Here you go.’”
It’s possible that others have the same sort of shift in their posing due to mental health, and could create a false positive for AI posing.
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I saw a lot of people going ‘oh no, people might think I’m AI’ on the other thread but no examples of anyone actually getting incorrectly flagged. I think these are strawmen. Have we seen it happen?
she/they
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@Tez said in AI In Poses:
I saw a lot of people going ‘oh no, people might think I’m AI’ on the other thread but no examples of anyone actually getting incorrectly flagged. I think these are strawmen. Have we seen it happen?
I haven’t seen it directly but I’ve heard an anecdotal story from someone I trust and play with enough to be pretty confident they aren’t an LLM poser. My understanding is someone ask them if one pose was AI based on Em Dash Paranoia.
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Has ANYONE gotten banned, not suspected, BANNED, for use of LLM in poses/profiles/etc when they HAVEN’T used it?
This is the only thing that concerns me. I’m a FOOL and was tricked by at least 1 AI app that slipped through. Sorry to catzilla for having to RP with this ai person for a week
I recall you lamenting. -
@Tez said in AI In Poses:
I saw a lot of people going ‘oh no, people might think I’m AI’ on the other thread but no examples of anyone actually getting incorrectly flagged. I think these are strawmen. Have we seen it happen?
I put some of my writing for room descs into an AI detector. Almost every one was marked as AI. Then I tried some from a former builder who I know was using AI (but I hadn’t honed my personal detection methods well enough to spot it, and we’ve since removed all of her descs). And it came back as not AI. This was back in early 2024, though, so maybe detection methods have improved in almost 2 years.
Some things I’ve noticed about LLMs is that they can never create entertaining details. And sometimes it’ll generalize by saying there are a bunch of the thing, or that its qualities are very quality. It spends a lot of time saying nothing of value, while giving the appearance of value. It’s so afraid to offend that it never takes risks. Its prose is cowardly, milquetoast, and superficial. It’s simultaneously compositionally professional and media-illiterate. And it passes those traits on to the people who use it.
Game-runner of Silent Heaven, a small-town horror MU.
https://silentheaven.org -
@Jumpscare said in AI In Poses:
@Tez said in AI In Poses:
I saw a lot of people going ‘oh no, people might think I’m AI’ on the other thread but no examples of anyone actually getting incorrectly flagged. I think these are strawmen. Have we seen it happen?
I put some of my writing for room descs into an AI detector. Almost every one was marked as AI. Then I tried some from a former builder who I know was using AI (but I hadn’t honed my personal detection methods well enough to spot it, and we’ve since removed all of her descs). And it came back as not AI. This was back in early 2024, though, so maybe detection methods have improved in almost 2 years.
I think a lot of us can say this about things we’ve written. Sometimes, especially because as a hobby we do often write a lot , and often in the areas these datasets are trained on, the way that we write CAN look sus. Lord knows we do, and have, and did raise this concern in the other thread.
But has anyone actually disciplined you for the things you’ve sincerely written, though? That’s the case I’m actually interested in, not the anxieties people have that they might accidentally get flagged as AI and banned on an off day. I just don’t think that’s happening.
she/they
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@Jumpscare said in AI In Poses:
I put some of my writing for room descs into an AI detector. Almost every one was marked as AI. Then I tried some from a former builder who I know was using AI (but I hadn’t honed my personal detection methods well enough to spot it, and we’ve since removed all of her descs). And it came back as not AI. This was back in early 2024, though, so maybe detection methods have improved in almost 2 years.
From playing with both the various detectors and LLMs, it’s gonna vary depending on which one you use and how much text you have to work with (I’ve found it a lot wonkier for descs because they’re a short sample size). I have a paid subscription to one that’s been reliable for me in the past but I haven’t dug into its methodology for false positive/negative rates in a while. At the end of the day it’s mostly a gut check so I’m not just going off pure Vibes when I get to the point where I want to ask somebody if they’re using an LLM. I really, really don’t want to interact with LLM as much as possible in my travels through this hobby. If that seems unfair or Luddite-y? IDK, maybe I am those things. But I would straight-up stop playing at all if this stuff came to dominate the MUSH space. And, while I think I’ve gotten a better sense of it over the years, particularly in creative writing, I don’t want to just go off my gut because my gut is inevitably going to go easier on my friends/players I like than randos I meet in the wild. There is stuff I am 90% sure is from ChatGPT that didn’t ping as it from a Non-Vibes source and I just shrugged and said ‘fair enough.’
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@Third-Eye It’s cool to be a Luddite. They didn’t hate technology in itself, they were professionals in their own right. They were mad that the automation of their labor never made their jobs easier, the profits all just went straight to the top.
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@labsunlimited Amusingly I’ve noticed an uptick in Luddite praise across the net lately. It’s cool to be a Luddite again.
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@Tez said in AI In Poses:
That’s the case I’m actually interested in, not the anxieties people have that they might accidentally get flagged as AI and banned on an off day. I just don’t think that’s happening.
Are you limiting your question solely to MUs? In that case, no, I am not aware of anyone getting disciplined falsely for AI use in MUs.
But in the real world? It’s absolutely happening. There’s no reason to believe it won’t happen here too if people start routinely feeding things into AI detectors.
@Tez said in AI In Poses:
We can and do punish players for plagiarism in this hobby, so if we treat them as equivalent, then why wouldn’t we punish them?
I didn’t say I wouldn’t ban someone for plagiarism if I believed they did it, I said I don’t routinely run poses through a plagiarism detector hunting for violations. Also while I may personally feel that GenAI is a plagiarism machine, I do acknowledge that mainstream society doesn’t see something AI-generated as plagiarism. So I do not attribute the same malice to the action.
