AI In Poses
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@bear_necessities said in AI In Poses:
@KarmaBum This. At this point, if someone is secretly an AI? Fine. As long as they bring more spice to the table than “grim man in a trench coat who sighs meaningfully,”
But it can’t “bring more spice” than that, lol. That’s exactly what it’s trained on. It is not technically possible for ChatGPT to excel at creativity, the best it can do is a mediocre average of all the writing it’s been fed, because that is how it works.
But writing quality or lack thereof aside: There are already LLM/ChatGPT apps and services for role play out there. It will adore you. It will make you the star of the story. It will be on any time frame and theme that you want. It will make any changes you want.
If we as a hobby aren’t using those services, then it’s because we decided there is something valuable about human interaction and responses that ChatGPT can’t replicate.
Is it cool to enjoy human responses to your content while being unwilling to write human content for the other person?
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@Ashkuri yeah I mean, I am mostly just on the side of the fence that we can’t really tell who is writing with LLMs and who just sucks at writing but it seems like this is a REALLY BIG DEAL when it… might not be? I’m definitely not saying that people should just RP with ChatGPT or that there isn’t something valuable in the human experience because I’m still playing MU*s to interact with you lot so clearly I want to be where the real people are. But I don’t particularly have the brain power to decide, or care, if you’re using LLMs to help you play with me as long as you’re fun to play with. And that’s me! And that’s fine! Not everyone has to think like me. Heck, I don’t even think like me a lot of the time
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@Muscle-Car said in AI In Poses:
Important to note none of those tools require making a deal with the devil.
I think that also depends on where you live and your economic situation. ChatGPT may be the cheapest and least personally stressful option to some people in the face of their particular disabilities.
Also, a lot of accessibility tools are now incorporating AI models into their installations because spinning off an AI model to learn a single user’s usage and behavoirs improves the software’s responsiveness and efficiency. There are dozens of articles out there discussing the topic.
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@bear_necessities said in AI In Poses:
we can’t really tell who is writing with LLMs and who just sucks at writing
I suck at writing. I will admit it here. The only part of writing I’m good at is spelling. Actually making sense, or writing interesting poses is where I’m a giant failure.
However, all of my bad poses and stuff are purely typed by hand.
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@MisterBoring The integration of “AI” into every single piece of software is personally abhorrent and will be looked back on with regret, mark my words. Further, if the service is free, you are the product. PAYING to be the product stretches that into the absurd.
I think my last point to make here is the simplest; I have NEVER turned down someone for RP when they said something like, “Forgive my English, it’s not my native language,” or “My poses are slow, is that okay?” I show them humanity and care, I feel special they chose me to spend time with. I will never feel compelled morally or socially to treat software with humanity. Especially when it’s so environmentally and socially repugnant.
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@Muscle-Car said in AI In Poses:
I will never feel compelled morally or socially to treat software with humanity. Especially when it’s so environmentally and socially repugnant.
So if someone comes to you and explains that their particular economic and health situation force them to use ChatGPT to even come close to your level of expression and pose at a speed that isn’t offputting, you’d immediately tell them to get bent?
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@MisterBoring said in AI In Poses:
@Muscle-Car said in AI In Poses:
I will never feel compelled morally or socially to treat software with humanity. Especially when it’s so environmentally and socially repugnant.
So if someone comes to you and explains that their particular economic and health situation force them to use ChatGPT to even come close to your level of expression and pose at a speed that isn’t offputting, you’d immediately tell them to get bent?
Ooh! Ooh! I’ve seen this movie! Would you kill a member of your family because the crazed cult that’s taken you hostage says it’s the only way to save the world? What if actual airplanes started crashing? What if, what if, what if a vision from a god said you had to plunge that knife into someone or the world would end?
Guess we all just hate the world and want it to die. It’s downright disrespectful to people who have reasons to murder their family members, but it is what it is.
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@MisterBoring That dog don’t hunt.
First, I made clear that a person’s capacity to speed-post or be syntax-perfect and typo free isn’t a qualifying factor in whom I choose to give my time. In fact I’d argue that one of the repulsive aspects of LLM in any type of RP is that the idea of wanting other writers to be like me is narcissistic and small-minded. The qualifier I care about is to be chosen as the one someone shares their time with, and hopefully have unique experiences come out of the pairing/grouping.
Second, I cannot believe anyone is “forced” to use ChatGPT (or other LLMs) for RP, only that they may opt to and if they are open about it I might suggest alternatives. So that stance in this hypothetical situation doesn’t hold up for me, either. It may be the tool they choose, and I may or may not be able to tell a LLM is being used, but I won’t tell anyone to get bent unless they are abusive to me or my dear ones.
This idea that our writing in MUSHing is competitive and constantly being qualified or disqualified is for the birds. Such petty, snarky, judgmental behavior is one of the many reasons I don’t bother with MUSH anymore. I RP to have fun with creative people, not pretend I’m King God English Professor Shakespeare or that my writing has more value than someone else’s. This is a hobby. It’s about fun. Anything else is set dressing at best and distraction at worst.
Got what you wanted, lost what you had.
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The couple of times I’ve run into someone using it, and was really convinced they were using it, it was done to make their writing longer and filled in.
But it was longer and full of fluff.
Just write the short pose. I beg. I’m tired. Don’t make me read all that, lol.
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@Muscle-Car said in AI In Poses:
the idea of wanting other writers to be like me is narcissistic and small-minded
I think this brings up another facet of this discussion. Where does mental health play into someone’s decision to rely on an LLM for assistance in communicating with others (be it an email, a discord message, or a pose in a MU)?
I could reasonably see imposter syndrome being just as much of a cause for jumping to ChatGPT for posing. I know I struggle with imposter syndrome regularly, and when I make a 2 line pose that describes my characters actions and dialogue in only the most basic terms, I honestly wonder if I shouldn’t just quit for being abjectly bad in comparison to some of the excellent prose I see my scene partners producing.
@Pyrephox said in AI In Poses:
Ooh! Ooh! I’ve seen this movie! Would you kill a member of your family because the crazed cult that’s taken you hostage says it’s the only way to save the world? What if actual airplanes started crashing? What if, what if, what if a vision from a god said you had to plunge that knife into someone or the world would end?
Ooh Ooh! I totally dismiss other people’s perspectives on things because I haven’t lived them and don’t believe they could exist.
Proud Member of the Pro-Mummy Alliance
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@MisterBoring said in AI In Poses:
I could reasonably see imposter syndrome being just as much of a cause for jumping to ChatGPT for posing. I know I struggle with imposter syndrome regularly, and when I make a 2 line pose that describes my characters actions and dialogue in only the most basic terms, I honestly wonder if I shouldn’t just quit for being abjectly bad in comparison to some of the excellent prose I see my scene partners producing.
I’ve said my piece of my dislike of what LLMs generate (what they are doing is not writing) on a qualitative level before so it didn’t seem necessary to say it again. It also gets into matters of taste that are whatever, if someone loves playing with ChatGPT that ain’t my business. But, I assure you, there are some of us out there who would much rather play with a real person whose writing wasn’t the best than try to read purple autocomplete nonsense.
ETA: This gets back to the original peeve that restarted this conversation. If a game allows or doesn’t care about players or staffers using LLM-generated content, then whatever, my problems with it become Me Problems rather than the game’s problems and I’m probably just in the wrong place. But it seems like it’d head off a lot of problems if people doing it said they were doing it so people who didn’t like it/weren’t comfortable with it didn’t have to waste their time
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@MisterBoring said in AI In Poses:
when I make a 2 line pose that describes my characters actions and dialogue in only the most basic terms, I honestly wonder if I shouldn’t just quit
I’m sorry you feel this way, and I’ve heard people say this before, but ChatGPT churn is not the answer.
@tsar said in AI In Poses:
Just write the short pose. I beg. I’m tired. Don’t make me read all that, lol.
In this very thread people are saying they would just prefer your short pose. Short poses are fine. Sometimes tiny poses are excellent and desirable. Like @tsar and @Third-Eye, I would much prefer to read a normal small pose than an LLM-addled longer one.
We all, in the end, RP with people who like our unique (human!) pose style and we avoid or less frequently interact with people who don’t like our unique pose style. If someone doesn’t like what you do, you probably don’t need them in your online life.
Use your unique human pose style, short or long or whatever it is. ChatGPT churn is not the answer.
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@Ashkuri said in AI In Poses:
In this very thread people are saying they would just prefer your short pose. Short poses are fine.
I have no interest in ChatGPT for creative purposes, and my little use of it for non creative purposes is dwindling down to zero mostly because I’ve quit the few things I was using it to help me with altogether.
My poses however, some months definitely rub my imposter syndrome the very wrong way. I may play in 5-6 scenes in a month, and in those scenes hundreds of lines of prose are created. When I look back at the logs, and see that I’m only responsible for maybe 10 lines in 6 scenes, I question whether I’m actually participating in the hobby or just being a virtual wallflower.
Proud Member of the Pro-Mummy Alliance
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What about using ChatGPT to try and improve your creative writing?
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Then it’s possible you need to look for other metrics to judge your or your writing partners on, rather than word count, when insecurity is gnawing on you. For example, maybe looking at what information your character provides, or how they move the scene along.
Given that the trend in MUSHing seems to be towards asynchronous rp more generally (I know there are mixed opinions on this but it’s still increasingly common) the ability to read, comprehend, and bang out a three paragraph response to a post in eight minutes is less a limiting factor.
That isn’t to say that physical issues or mental processing might not still be barriers of entry at the current pace, but it’s probably true that writing and refining a query to chatgpt and performing edits on it Is actually a similar mental and physical load to the process of typing out a short but meaningful response, because if you care about the scene and not just prompting your rp partner to feed you their next response, you’re going to care about what your character does, and how. And chatgpt won’t always get that right.
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@MisterBoring said in AI In Poses:
@Pyrephox said in AI In Poses:
Ooh! Ooh! I’ve seen this movie! Would you kill a member of your family because the crazed cult that’s taken you hostage says it’s the only way to save the world? What if actual airplanes started crashing? What if, what if, what if a vision from a god said you had to plunge that knife into someone or the world would end?
Ooh Ooh! I totally dismiss other people’s perspectives on things because I haven’t lived them and don’t believe they could exist.
Have you lived it?
Has anyone lived it? Can you cite a single actual case of someone needing, specifically, an LLM and not any of the other tools that have been outlined in this thread and that people with disabilities have been using with success for decades, using an LLM to “pose on time” and being removed from the hobby or shunned for it when people find out?
Or, instead, is this simply your building a torturous “what if” scenario to justify why it is Right and Good Ackshully for you to do what you plan to do anyway and just don’t want to experience any negative consequences from.
Just use your AI, man. If anyone gives a shit, it’s because what the LLM gave you to put out in the world is dreck, and people don’t like dreck. They won’t play with you, and that’s okay. No one owes you RP. Just find someone else who also uses LLMs, introduce your chatbots to one another, and discover that you can now use BOTH hands to fab to your TS.
There’s no witch hunt. Just people deciding what, and who, they do or do not want to play with. Find your fun, recognize it won’t match with others, and stop trying to make it a righteous crusade.
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@Pyrephox said in AI In Poses:
Can you cite a single actual case of someone needing, specifically, an LLM and not any of the other tools that have been outlined in this thread and that people with disabilities have been using with success for decades, using an LLM to “pose on time” and being removed from the hobby or shunned for it when people find out?
Without someone coming forward to admit it here (and I doubt they would because of the stigma we’ve already witnessed in this thread), I can only provide cases where people with disabilities are turning to LLMs as assistive tech.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0262885624004529#sec4
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@Pyrephox said in AI In Poses:
There’s no witch hunt
I never said there was. I was proposing the hypothetical case of someone who has to rely on an LLM for their own actual disabilities, which given the state of the health care system in the US and other countries, makes sense to me.
I even got my answer and that was generally: people who use AI, regardless of the reason, are contributing to a horrible industry that shouldn’t exist.
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If someone tells me with a straight face that they need ChatGPT because they have a disability that makes them unable to write, I view that with the exact same incredulity if they’d announced that they need Stockfish on the side because they have a disability that makes them bad at chess. It’s absurd. If I wanted to play against a computer, I’d just … do that.
I have to wonder why such a hypothetical person insists on playing a game around creative writing in a time sensitive environment if they struggle so much with creative writing in a time sensitive environment. Asynchronous RP would do a lot more for them, and we’d actually get to read their writing rather than the output of “Dave eats his porridge. ChatGPT pad this to 4 paragraphs of waffle”.
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A while ago I was in an event scene with someone that could not string sentences together to save his life. No real regard for capitalization or punctuation, but he was able to communicate what he was going for. Sure I’d prefer something more polished, but his character was amusing, and he rolled with the punches. He wasn’t boring. He was real. He was genuine. It was clear to me because every word he managed to type at us, no matter how mangled, was something from his own mind. I’m not really sure what my point is. I don’t really know how to explain that it’s important, at least to me, to know that the word you’ve included in your pose was something you chose, you settled on.
I know of another player that was pretty fast and loose with punctuation, and happened to be… pretty boring. They came to an event I was running and we had a minor little poetry contest. A poet character came up with a sweet and snappy haiku. Then, noticing positive reactions, fast-and-loose belted out an 8 stanza rhyming poem in 3 minutes, perfectly formatted, entirely different from that player’s writing style. I was baffled at first. It did not cross my mind that someone would’ve gone out of their way to generate something like that for a silly poetry contest. The stakes could not be lower.
I guess I want to know what people mean by improving their poses. Making them longer. Filling in the gaps? Do you simply give the LLM a prompt like “respond posing my character takes off his coat and goes into the kitchen to make something”? Is it more detailed than that? Simpler?
