AI In Poses
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@Ashkuri They’ve asked me to help them make images of their characters in Midjourney and I did. Helping them refine their prompt or whatever.
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I don’t think comparing it to bad/boring writing is the whole story. With practice, if you are trying and writing your own poses, you might actually get better at it. You might evolve into being more interesting to interact with. It might be worth throwing some rp to a new/bad writer, just to give them some practice so they can improve!
LLMs never will. I resent throwing my time and effort into a black hole where I am getting nothing from it, and neither is anyone else.
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Using LLMs to RP is, bare minimum, insulting as fuck. It is also pathetic, not that’s like a personal opinion and not like a cultural one. Literally the major difference between something like a MU* and other single player role-playing games is the interaction between people and the collaborative element to storytelling. Subverting that in any way goes beyond missing the point–it’s absurd to even want to.
Like what the fuck are you (you being the hypothetical LLMRP strawman I have made up in my head) doing? Why would I want to create anything with you while you’re playing a choose-your-own text adventure? If I want to RP with an LLM I literally do not need a person on the other end. If what you’re doing is something I could actually do without you to functionality the same degree of satisfaction why the fuck is it even happening?
That’s not even considering the larger conversation about LLMs and ethics or whatever.
Ban that shit and toss it in the fucking garbage.
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Yea it’s exactly the same as getting scammed by AI, sorry. I’m being scammed. You are tricking me into interacting with AI. It doesn’t matter to me at all that my time instead of money is being wasted. It’s the same basic betrayal either way.
This is specifically re: text, not images. I’ve used AI images before - made by other people because I lack the knack for prompts, not because of moral authority or whatever. I probably won’t again, because the more this stuff becomes pervasive the less comfortable I get with it. I have taken an AI image and brought it to a flesh and blood artist and paid them to draw a character based on it, though, and I felt okay about that.
Re: text, that is the meat of the thing.
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I know that AI models are slightly more sophisticated now, but whenever I picture attempting to RP with someone using an LLM for their poses, I imagine me writing out a big scene set, and then someone responding with the sort of stereotypical AI bowing and scraping it does.
Just pulling from a scene I ran back on Fallcoast in like 2015 because logs are forever (names removed):
The Forbidden Gate is one of the more frequented Gates in Fallcoast, and with good reason. It typically leads to one of the more stable and easier parts of the Underworld to access and travel through, rather than some of the others, which lead to winding caverns and mazes. Player1 and Player2 are able to push their way through the Gate and get into the Autocthonous Depths, pulling themselves through the initial tight squeeze of the caverns directly beyond the Gate until they reach the larger mass of empty rock interspersed with pillars, the place where most of the Rivers tend to wind up being.
Like usual lately, this part of the Underworld is a quiet place almost devoid entirely of ghosts and the Unfettered. It seems bizarrely empty; not even the sound of something moving in the dark beyond the Sin-Eaters’ line of sight can be heard. Only the rush of some Underworld River in the distance, and the scent of stale, fetid water that’s been standing for some time.
Player1 glances about and says, "It sounds like you were referring to how few ghosts are around these days. You’re absolutely right! Now I notice that there are no ghosts at all—it looks like they have fled deeper into the Autocthonous Depths. It isn’t just eerie. It’s terrifying.
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@somasatori This is inaccurate to how they would actually respond. I was actually just saying this elsewhere, but the technology changes RAPIDLY, and we are fooling ourselves to think that is what it looks like, or that what we recognize now we will recognize in six or even three months.
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@Tez said in AI In Poses:
@somasatori This is inaccurate to how they would actually respond. I was actually just saying this elsewhere, but the technology changes RAPIDLY, and we are fooling ourselves to think that is what it looks like, or that what we recognize now we will recognize in six or even three months.
It’s too bad, since it would be easy enough to just separate it out. It’s hard to imagine what the endgame of using an LLM to RP would be, since the implication would be that if you’re using it, I could be using it, so … what, we’re just having our LLMs RP with each other? Even the staunchest “LLMs reduce the mental load/writing barrier on the player to dig into the story” advocates have to admit that would be a useless future for the hobby.
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@somasatori said in AI In Poses:
Even the staunchest “LLMs reduce the mental load/writing barrier on the player to dig into the story” advocates have to admit that would be a useless future for the hobby.
No one has to admit anything and YOU CAN’T MAKE THEM!!!
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@Tez So you call yourself a role player? [smirk.jpg] Name all poses.
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@Muscle-Car said in AI In Poses:
@Tez So you call yourself a role player? [smirk.jpg] Name all poses.
What’s your favorite pose? Oh, heh. Yeah, that was okay. I prefer the earlier @emits.
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@Yam said in AI In Poses:
Aight so we can’t use tools to check, and we can’t use our guts to check,
I’m not sure where you’re getting that from.
Some people think it’s perfectly fine to use the AI detectors.
Other people think it’s better to use your gut.
A third group of people prefer to use the detector to back up their gut.
You do you.
Personally I’m in the same camp as @KDraygo . If your vibe is off-putting to me, or I’m reasonably convinced you’re using AI, I’m not going to RP with you. I’m sure we’ll both survive.
When I spoke of “structural change”, it was in regards to education. There I think it’s a bit more complicated, but that’s kinda irrelevant from a gaming perspective.
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I feel like I need to be clearer about my perspective, since there are indeed some viewpoints presented here that are along the lines of not my monkeys, not my circus, I’m just the player, which I totally get. As a player, you might get disgruntled, you might feel betrayed, you might not care at all, you might be literally using it to pose right back. My thoughts on all of this has been through the lens of a gamerunner, and just like I feel that any gamerunner tolerating and attempting to talk down someone that misbehaves right off the bat, a gamerunner that tolerates the usage here does their playerbase a disservice. The gamerunner might be okay with assholish behavior, and the gamerunner might be okay with allowing folk to use LLMs, but I personally do not think that is healthy for a game.
I could be wrong about that. I’m not some gamerunning titan that has run many many public games to completion. But I do think tacit permittance would lead to friction. I guess in the same way that some people expect async as a baseline and some people don’t and then there’s some… fun tension.
I don’t actually know what a game would look like, if their policy is “AI is fine” or even “AI is not fine but we’re not going to chase you down”. My speculation, to be clear, is that it would not work out well.
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With the amount of time investment needed to get AIs these days to do absolutely anything right (see the other thread where I said AI is getting dumber), by the time you carefully cultivate an LLM to write a pose that actually makes sense within the context of the scene, before even making it fit your writing style, you might as well have just written it out yourself.
It’s one of those traps where it’s doing more work for a worse result because it’s been advertised as the opposite.
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@Hobbie I dunno about this. For RP it doesn’t need to make functional code, and most scenes don’t even involve enough heavy theme specifics for the AI to fail them. AI is okay at, and fast at, writing RP.
Is it great? No. Is it interesting? Not really. But it’s inoffensive for sure and it’s “good enough” for a lot of people. That’s why so many people are adamant on points like “It’s fine as long as it’s readable” and “I only used it to make my pose BETTER” and “AI is so good and so slick that if you’re such a super mega good writer you’ll get called AI by accident” and “It’s better than bar RP”
Code, it’s failing for sure. But for quick fictional scenario writing, it does get better every day, even though it’s still never going to be better than average. The issue with AI isn’t so much “it sucks major ass to read this, this is unintelligible” as it is “you’ve lied to me and cheated me out of the human connection/experience we were both supposed to opt into.”
That last part is the kicker to me, and I am comfortable banning players who are okay with that kind of cheating. I can’t thrive in the same game ecosystem as them, no matter how “good” the AI gets.
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@Hobbie said in AI In Poses:
With the amount of time investment needed to get AIs these days to do absolutely anything right (see the other thread where I said AI is getting dumber), by the time you carefully cultivate an LLM to write a pose that actually makes sense within the context of the scene, before even making it fit your writing style, you might as well have just written it out yourself.
We have to let this one go. It just is not representative of the experience today. I do not use these tools, but Copilot is installed on every Windows device now and it is trivially easy to try this yourself.
I gave it a desc @Tez wrote and asked it to make a new desc in the same style for a woman.
It used too many exact phrases from the original so I simply asked it to try again.
I gave it some basic instructions about how to pose and intro’d ‘my guy’.
I realized I needed to tell it not to write like a writer (we don’t powerpose) and I was in business.
From here on all I have to do is paste a scene partner’s poses and I could keep ‘Evelyn’ rattling away perpetually with responses coming back to me in 5 seconds.
Again, this took less than 10 minutes. We need to be aware of where these tools actually are.
he/him
this machine kills fascists -
@Ashkuri @Trashcan sometimes I really like being proven wrong, but this is not one of those days. Why ya gotta take me out of my imaginary fantasy world where AI is a fad that will disappear by itself?
JFC I thought it was still writing absolute slop but now it takes only ten minutes to train the damn thing to write passable poses? I’m sitting here very annoyed lol.
I don’t think using an AI to generate creative writing is worth the trade-off of contributing to AI’s eradication of jobs, the environment, creativity, reliable and accurate information etc.
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@Hobbie said in AI In Poses:
it takes only ten minutes to train the damn thing to write passable poses?
Sure, as long as you don’t mind when it can’t keep the details of Evelyn’s backstory straight, forgets that she has a fan in her hand from one pose to the next, doesn’t take into account how the scene she had last month would affect her dealings with Edward, etc. And heaven help you with theme consistency if the RP is happening in an original or lesser-known setting.
GenAI is good at generating plausible text - that’s literally its one job. It still isn’t very good at generating a coherent story.
I look at those example poses and they make me cringe. While I’d be reasonably confident they were AI-generated, to @Yam’s point about being a gamerunner, I don’t know that I’d be confident enough to ban somebody over it. And the AI generators aren’t trustworthy enough for me. (Some I tried insisted that some poses from 2001 had a better-than-average chance of being AI-generated, lol.)
I dunno. It sucks. I hate GenAI.
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@Faraday said in AI In Poses:
forgets that she has a fan in her hand from one pose to the next
yes, uh, damn that forgetful AI, ahem >.> <.<
I appreciate the pose examples because I wouldn’t have thought they would look like that. There’s still a vague sense of uncanny around a couple of the lines there, like
“the sort reserved for moments that amuse rather than unsettle”
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“the plain cut of a coat and the steady set of shoulders register in her mind as particulars to be filed away”
but it may be hard to recognize among a series of other poses if you were in a larger group scene.
"And the Fool says, pointing to the invertebrate fauna feeding in the graves: 'Here a monarchy reigns, mightier than you: His Majesty the Worm.'"
Italo Calvino, The Castle of Crossed Destines -
@Trashcan said in AI In Poses:
IDK how to feel about how closely the ‘great, now write a description’ prompt ended up eerily similar to the Age Old Nymeria Desc we’ve all read for ages and understood was bad and overwrought and that ended in one of the WORAs getting hosted in Malaysia.I guess in my heart of hearts I hope LLM was trained on it, over and over again.
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I really honestly would not be able to tell those poses were AI generated in a scene. There’s nothing in there that I haven’t written in some form or fashion, and certainly nothing I haven’t seen 10000 times in the 20+ years I’ve been doing this hobby. I wouldn’t even SUSPECT AI was used.
