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Star Wars Age of Alliances: Hadrix and Cujo
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@64bitjedi said in Star Wars Age of Alliances: Hadrix and Cujo:
@helvetica said in Star Wars Age of Alliances: Hadrix and Cujo:
@64bitjedi This is not personal. I do not know you. If you stay on that game with that person in charge, you’re the asshole.
I know that this issue is a hand grenade, so I’m trying to keep my feelings in check because my pride won’t help anyone. But being called ignorant and incompetent by others feels pretty personal. I know that wasn’t you, but, jeeze.
I mean, unless you’re going to come in with proof that all of the stuff that’s been discussed is a pack of lies, then I’m afraid your options are: ignorant, incompetent, or actively malicious. Like, sorry, but even if you are a super upstanding dude yourself, if you’ve been a part of staff for years and have failed to notice the level of rottenness being described, then yeah, that’s incompetence. Or willful blindness.
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@64bitjedi said in Star Wars Age of Alliances: Hadrix and Cujo:
First I would have to have any idea who made the complaints
No you don’t. You just have to know that complaints have been ignored and swept under the rug. You just have to know that harassment under Cujo’s watch has caused at least 8 players to leave the game due to discomfort with sex pests on the game. That’s a bare minimum, because 8 corroborated stories have come to light.
Imagine how many more reported things to Cujo which went ignored.
Imagine how many more left without saying a word.
Your game is dying because Cujo would rather keep 5 sex pests (including himself) than 30 non sex pests.
What are you going to do about that?
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@Roz So my line of thinking is this:
Someone sends me a link to this thread, with a lot of information I didn’t know about. I can either ignore it, or, I can try and get in on the discussion and find out why I didn’t know.
Don’t get me wrong: I knew showing my face would be putting blood in the water. I accept that. But that wasn’t going to change in time.
I’m here trying to be part of the conversation. I’m not here to defend the actions of other people (though I am willing to defend mine), and I’m not here to call people liars. I’m just here.
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@64bitjedi You can’t just be here. Games don’t function without coders. You’re someone with influence on that game, and you are being presented with the opportunity to no longer support someone who is demonstratively not interested in changing their deeply troubling behavior. No amount of placating language is going to change that.
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(:Public:) Ax (A) is curious what Kasia/Zephyr did that was bad enough to have not only her, but those people associated with her get their alts destroyed and their primary characters (some of who were on vacation) sent to the Old Guard Lounge and @passworded? Is that the new standard of dealing with people who investigate claims of sexual harassment here? Burn them and their associates? I’m just curious
(:Public:) Cujo
says, “Ax, you don’t care about any of those things.”
(:Public:) Cujo says, “If you did, you’d put in a request to talk privately.”
(:Public:) Cujo says, “But you didn’t do that, you posted it publicly because you want to make a huge show of things.”
(:Public:) Cujo sayz, “So now you’re banned from this channel, well done.”DO NOT SPEAK OUT, OR YOU WILL BE SILENCED, etc etc. Shocker.
Mummy Pun? MUMMY PUN!
She/her -
@Jennkryst “How dare you call me out in public instead of DMing me where I can deny it ever happened?”
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@64bitjedi said in Star Wars Age of Alliances: Hadrix and Cujo:
I also can’t make that promise yet. I never said those things because I can’t deliver those things. I can’t provide restitution for the people who were hurt.
I cannot undo what has happened. I don’t think I can even provide some measure of comfort to people that were wronged.
ETA: So…what does you “being here” accomplish, my dude?
You’ve provided a half-assed defense of your own involvement and some attempted back-and-forth about the code, which isn’t really what any of this was about in the first place. But you’re literally saying you won’t commit to help or even try to comfort the people involved, so it sounds like the first part is really all you came here to do – cover your own butt.
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@Jennkryst said in Star Wars Age of Alliances: Hadrix and Cujo:
(:Public:) Ax (A) is curious what Kasia/Zephyr did that was bad enough to have not only her, but those people associated with her get their alts destroyed and their primary characters (some of who were on vacation) sent to the Old Guard Lounge and @passworded? Is that the new standard of dealing with people who investigate claims of sexual harassment here? Burn them and their associates? I’m just curious
(:Public:) Cujo says, “Ax, you don’t care about any of those things.”
(:Public:) Cujo says, “If you did, you’d put in a request to talk privately.”
(:Public:) Cujo says, “But you didn’t do that, you posted it publicly because you want to make a huge show of things.”
(:Public:) Cujo sayz, “So now you’re banned from this channel, well done.”DO NOT SPEAK OUT, OR YOU WILL BE SILENCED, etc etc. Shocker.
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@GF said in Star Wars Age of Alliances: Hadrix and Cujo:
@64bitjedi said in Star Wars Age of Alliances: Hadrix and Cujo:
@GF said in Star Wars Age of Alliances: Hadrix and Cujo:
@64bitjedi said in Star Wars Age of Alliances: Hadrix and Cujo:
When the people who will defend others leave a space, that space gets worse. People need to know there is someone they can report this stuff to.
If this thread is the first time you’re hearing most of these complaints, then people do not know or believe there is someone that can report this stuff to.
Which is the only reason I’m here trying.
Let me get this straight. Your goal here is to make people understand that you will be their advocate, and that’s why your first post was to say you never played on some other game we’re not really even talking about? That’s why you haven’t reached out to anyone who’s made an accusation and offered to listen? That’s why your tone has been pedantic and defensive? That’s why when people ask what you’re doing, you answer in the vaguest possible terms that could not possibly provide any comfort or confidence to the people who have been hurt on your game?
I will try to give you the benefit of the doubt that you actually believe you’re here to let victims of your game know they’re safe in your hands, but even if you believe it, the level of thoughtlessness and incompetence you are displaying is unconscionable. You are so bad at the thing you claim to want to do that you are actively doing harm to your own purported cause. You seriously need to step out of that role immediately until you have done hard research into how to talk to victims of sexual harassment.
I suppose me telling you this obligates me to give you a crash course on the topic, but I am much too tired to deal with it and too flabbergasted to do so with any degree of good faith.
If this is how you treat people who are trying to help, I can start to understand why no one tries to help.
I don’t know anyone in this situation very well. But what I do know is that no one on staff over there but @64bitjedi is offering anything but a giant wall of IGNORE or denials for the situation.
Even if the help is shitty (which I don’t think that it is, especially considering that he has had no obligation to try to help or explain anything or make anyone feel better and was specifically told not to but chose to do it anyway) it is still more help than anyone else has gotten. And instead of building on that, you just want to unload all your anger on this person.
If you’re trying to make him go away so that you can continue to scream/complain into the void without any possibility of anything ever improving, then keep it up, you are definitely off to a good start.
But personally, I’d suggest going another route and actually trying to work with the person that is trying to work with you.
@helvetica said in Star Wars Age of Alliances: Hadrix and Cujo:
@64bitjedi You can’t just be here. Games don’t function without coders. You’re someone with influence on that game, and you are being presented with the opportunity to no longer support someone who is demonstratively not interested in changing their deeply troubling behavior. No amount of placating language is going to change that.
If he’s someone with influence on that game how does it help to remove himself from the game? You have someone that has the power to change things and you ask them to give up all that power and leave it to the people who are doing all the bad things? That doesn’t make any sense… except…
It definitely helps all the hurt/angry people that would like to see the place fail as revenge, but it doesn’t actually help the game itself in any way.
So what really is the goal? Improving the situation or scorched earth revengery?
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Clearly the upset people should just smile more.
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@Roz said in Star Wars Age of Alliances: Hadrix and Cujo:
I mean, unless you’re going to come in with proof that all of the stuff that’s been discussed is a pack of lies, then I’m afraid your options are: ignorant, incompetent, or actively malicious.
Out of curiosity, what sort of proof would be accepted as valid? Everyone here has already said that no log will ever be accepted as evidence of anything. Would an equal number of people claiming that everything was filthy, filthy lies be enough? That doesn’t make sense, as surely they’d be labeled as Cujo/Hadrix/Et al shills, right?
I’ve no dog in this hunt, not knowing anyone involved and never having played the game in question, but from a completely outsider perspective, everyone seems to view the other side as acting in complete bad faith. If personal testimony is the only currency of evidence available, then no amount of evidence will change anyone’s mind since it’s always assumed to be questionable at best or actively malicious at worse.
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@64bitjedi I think you’ve been pretty mild-mannered given the coal-raking. It’s hard to be in your spot, and I can appreciate that, and I can respect that you came here to face the music in a townsquare format, not because I think that’s such a highly respectable thing to do: I think it’s the bare minimum, but you seem to be the only Staffer from your game to do that.
I can also appreciate that you have a tangible investment of real labor hours in this game, an emotional connection to it, and a vested interest in the community. Most of the people on this board don’t, and so it’s effortless and quarrelless to dismiss the entire thing as unsalvageably bad without having to contemplate all the good times you’ve likely had there.
I have no doubt that Staffers who clearly have known the whole time that they were acting in bad faith went to extraordinary lengths to keep their bad behavior and problematic incidents from you; as a coder, giving you as few reasons to get involved in anything but coding is in Cujo’s best interest.
When I hear terms like “investigation” in reference to something like this, an online game, I don’t know, that just makes me laugh. You’ve read this thread, and as kept-in-the-coder-dark as you might have been, you know the vibe of your own game. You know the character of the people that you co-staff with. Either you believe the claims of egregious, absofuckinglutely untenable harassment and abuse of power, or you don’t.
So let’s assume that you do believe them, because I’ve never seen this many claims about someone who was innocent, like ever, ever, ever, so let’s assume that you do: now what?
Do you have the authority to get rid of Hadrix? To disempower him from a Staff bit? To ban him from the game? If you had that authority, would you use it? I’m willing to bet that if Cujo is headwiz, you can’t get rid of him.
This is where we’re stuck. From the longevity and pattern of behavior described on this thread, I don’t see much chance for a rehabilitation of Cujo or Hadrix’s behavior. Any changes will be short-lived, and why shouldn’t they be? They’ll have gotten away with it. They say a few contrite words, hush up on Public for a couple of days, or weeks, and it all blows over.
Your players, the people here, folks are telling you that doesn’t cut the mustard.
Continuing to support Hadrix or Cujo in any way, and I believe that includes continuing to provide support for a game in which they have not been punished or disempowered, as good as your intentions are and as good as you say your intentions are, that makes you an enabler. And that’s what I think some other folks are trying to tell you, and frankly, I agree.
I wish you would.
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Pardoning your own staff, how brave!
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@Pax Thank you for articulating all that in a far less frustrated and angry way than I could ever have managed.
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So it seems that you are helpful to Cujo. Help him steer and control where he wants the game to go, you are fine to do whatever you wish to other players. That it is an honor to be bothered by his hand-picked sex pests, or did I miss read his post?
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@64bitjedi said in Star Wars Age of Alliances: Hadrix and Cujo:
@helvetica said in Star Wars Age of Alliances: Hadrix and Cujo:
I mean, if I were you I would cut ties with this mess. Maybe you could help build something worthwhile with some of these players who are dedicated to making a better, more socially responsible game.
When the people who will defend others leave a space, that space gets worse. People need to know there is someone they can report this stuff to. We’ve done it with other instances. People have been banned from the game for this behavior. Every instance of harassment I have been made aware of has had investigations done and determinations made.
Just out of curiosity, why so patently loyal to Cujo? Because from the optics, he does nothing but turn a blind eye to abuse because he can’t be bothered to deal with it, so the sex pests run amok. Does he have some kind of dirty laundry on you. Because is it that easy to wash your hands of it because ‘investigations were done and determinations were made’ when all the evidence and testimony here suggests the exact opposite?
Or do you just not give a shit?
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@STD said in Star Wars Age of Alliances: Hadrix and Cujo:
Everyone here has already said that no log will ever be accepted as evidence of anything.
It is evidence, it’s just bad evidence.
But your overall question is good: What kinds of things would we accept as proof for assertions?
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Cujo sounds like he stepped straight out of 1998 Game Admin School.
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@STD said in Star Wars Age of Alliances: Hadrix and Cujo:
Everyone here has already said that no log will ever be accepted as evidence of anything.
lol citation needed
there’s a vast gulf between “logs of bad behavior aren’t required to assume it is happening” and “no log will ever be accepted as evidence of anything”
also is this game run by Ganymede? this whole “stand by your man while he harasses everyone around you and pretend it’s fine” vibe is crazy familiar, bonus points for opaque “discussions” and banning everyone
