Banning Bad, Actually?

Meg

just stating for the record, that the two views ‘we don’t ban enough’ and ‘having a hair trigger and banning the first time someone comes off rude might be bad (in the sense that you might miss good people)’ aren’t fundamentally opposing views.

Yam

@Meg That’s valid. I don’t think anyone is actually all that hair trigger. Someone mentioned that there’s a lot the playerbase doesn’t actually see, as staff gets clues from the first login of the potential player, the application, the response to the application, etc. They build up a profile.

I’m not sure anyone is like… immediately banning people for brusquely asking questions. I can think of one player that began with a VERY bad impression on a game I helped run and I wanted them to be shown the door immediately. My fellow staffers told me to chill. This person stuck around for a bit and were more or less fine. Not a huge problem, not a huge asset. Just there. I don’t really think I would’ve missed them if they were nudged off. <<;

Wizz

@Ominous said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

I just didn’t think Warma Sheen was being a shit in the text provided.

you’re in the minority there for a reason that I’m not going to spend pages and pages spelling out for you. how much of a shit we’d all probably disagree on but it’s generally just bad form to get upset (“made me feel a certain kind of way” does not translate to anxiety, it translates to frustration, as he explained himself. it’s just a passive aggressive way of saying “it pissed me off”) about tiny delays.

if you don’t get why that’s bothersome, you’re irritating more people than you’re probably aware of.

Ominous

@Wizz said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

@Ominous said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

you’re in the minority there for a reason that I’m not going to spend pages and pages spelling out for you.

A rather sizable minority. It’s not like I am dying on a hill alone here, and a few of those taking similar stances as me are not members of the forum that people would normally tag as “unreasonable” or “a nuisance.”

“made me feel a certain kind of way” does not translate to anxiety, it translates to frustration, as he explained himself. it’s just a passive aggressive way of saying “it pissed me off”

I just reread all of Warma Sheen’s posts. I do not see them stating at any point that “made me feel a certain kind of way” was a statement of frustration. In fact, they state it was exactly what I read it as:

@Warma-Sheen said in Empire Discussion Thread:
And I felt weird about having a bunch of open jobs cause I thought maybe I was being too much of a burden, so I closed a bunch of them down.

That seems like anxiety not frustration. Maybe I missed something. Can you point to me where Warma Sheen says that was a statement of frustration?

you’re irritating more people than you’re probably aware of.

Probably. I don’t read social situations very well and will ask out of the blue whether I am bothering someone just to make sure that hints aren’t being dropped that I am impervious to.

Wizz

I’m not going to sit here and argue with you about it, like I just said. if you didn’t think he was in the wrong, okay.

helvetica

It may be worth stating that this type of ban doesn’t have to be representative of who the player is as a person. As opposed to like… a sex pest ban or banning one of those people qualified to teach a masterclass on toxicity and manipulation. It’s okay for a place to just… not be right for you.

Faraday

@Trashcan said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

and let us leave room for grace and assume this is more than an isolated incident)

That is the whole crux of the debate from my perspective. Various folks in the thread have made statements that indicate they don’t leave grace to ensure it’s more than an isolated incident. That even a single remark they deemed “rude” was enough to warrant a ban. I’m too tired to go and find the exact quotes, but it was pretty clear to me.

I just think that’s excessive. I also think it’s their right to do so on their games if they see fit.

Pavel

@Faraday said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

I just think that’s excessive. I also think it’s their right to do so on their games if they see fit.

I think this may be another crux (can an argument have more than one crux?) of the argument. The difference between something being right and someone having the right – and in this instance whether there’s a difference at all.

Yam

@Faraday Do you recall ol’ OnceWas?

Minus one Michelin star for “unclear help file” work.

If a system is supposed to work a specific way, say it is supposed to work that way. If it isn’t, update a file or something, maybe?

This was basically enough to get OnceWas banned. This person was freshly new. This is the most hair trigger case I can think of. He was immediately shown the door, although he was sure to kinda’ buckle down on his stance. Mild, probably, but no one wanted to deal with it.

I’m unclear of what your threshold is, as I recall you were not very approving of this behavior.

KDraygo

@Yam said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

@Faraday Do you recall ol’ OnceWas?

Minus one Michelin star for “unclear help file” work.

If a system is supposed to work a specific way, say it is supposed to work that way. If it isn’t, update a file or something, maybe?

This was basically enough to get him banned. This person was freshly new. This is the most hair trigger case I can think of. He was immediately shown the door, although he was sure to kinda’ buckle down on his stance. Mild, probably, but no one wanted to deal with it.

I’m unclear of what your threshold is, as I recall you were not very approving of this behavior.

That is, of course, just half of the story since we do not know Ada’s accounts. We don’t know if Ada has had past interactions with the player before or someone else have already spoken to about this player before. From one telling, it appears to be just be an one-off encounter but it’s only one telling.

Unless I missed Ada’s explanation and not just one log that was provided stating that was it.

Roz

@Ominous said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

For those who are on the side of ban early and ban often, might I suggest running private, whitelist server for just your friends? Or maybe have a rigorous review process requiring an interview between staff and an applicant before they can CG?

idk i feel like my counterpoint for this is “if you don’t want to get banned early and often from a public game, might i suggest simply being on your best behavior?”

Ominous

@Pavel said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

I think this may be another crux (can an argument have more than one crux?) of the argument. The difference between something being right and someone having the right – and in this instance whether there’s a difference at all.

Civil Law countries have the Prohibition of Chicane which holds that using your rights to inflict harm on another is illegal. So, people have to use their rights right for it to be alright, right?

sao

Like I can ask someone to leave my table for any reason and you can choose not to play at my table for any reason. One of the reasons I don’t staff anymore is I spend all my grace for my job and I don’t have a lot to get shit on as a volunteer anymore. So now I don’t even HAVE a table.

Ominous

@Roz said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

idk i feel like my counterpoint for this is “if you don’t want to get banned early and often from a public game, might i suggest simply being on your best behavior?”

I don’t think “best behavior” is a realistic standard for a recreational hobby. How about “decent behavior?”

catzilla

@Yam said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

@Faraday Do you recall ol’ OnceWas?

Minus one Michelin star for “unclear help file” work.

If a system is supposed to work a specific way, say it is supposed to work that way. If it isn’t, update a file or something, maybe?

This was basically enough to get OnceWas banned. This person was freshly new. This is the most hair trigger case I can think of. He was immediately shown the door, although he was sure to kinda’ buckle down on his stance. Mild, probably, but no one wanted to deal with it.

I’m unclear of what your threshold is, as I recall you were not very approving of this behavior.

Wasn’t part of the banning also because they had shown creeper tendencies in the past?

Yam

@catzilla Possibly. I have vague memories of folk coming out of the woodwork.

Pavel

We’re like this close > < to prescribing general behavioural standards, again.

Wizz

@Faraday said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

Various folks in the thread have made statements that indicate they don’t leave grace to ensure it’s more than an isolated incident. That even a single remark they deemed “rude” was enough to warrant a ban. I’m too tired to go and find the exact quotes, but it was pretty clear to me.

I’ll admit that this is true, depending on the issue. I’m actually with you more than I’ve made room to say, there are situations that I would have more grace for, but on the other hand others I definitely have less, and (omg shocking, I know) strangers acting like they are disproportionately entitled to my or other people’s free time is just one of those things.

there’s a line where just leaving a player hanging with no explanation becomes just as obnoxious, of course, but. it’s not measured in days, for me. there’s just not any imaginary fun time thing that’s that important.

bear_necessities

@Pavel I mean isn’t that just “don’t be a dick”?

Come on people, don’t be a dick. It really isn’t that difficult lol

Pavel

@Wizz said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

there’s a line where just leaving a player hanging with no explanation becomes just as obnoxious, of course, but.

I agree, though I would probably also posit the corollary that if you’ve already established (through word or deed) a standard and that standard is unmet, then a player is entitled to regard that as an issue. That doesn’t entitle them to be a shit about it, obviously, but perhaps a little more leeway on shittitude is understandable in those circumstances.

@bear_necessities said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

@Pavel I mean isn’t that just “don’t be a dick”?

Come on people, don’t be a dick. It really isn’t that difficult lol

Well that’s kind of yet another crux of the matter. What counts as being a dick for you isn’t necessarily going to be the same as it is for me, or for Faraday, or for whomever is running Shang, etc, etc.

My mostly facetious line about prescriptive behavioural standards is the suggestion that we’re going to have this kind of a conversation ad nauseam until and unless there’s a set, precise, prescriptive, and detailed standard of acceptable behaviour that is inviolate. Which is impossible. So we’ll have this conversation. Forever.